JONES, WYATT & ROBERTS CONFIDENTIAL AND PRIVILEGED MEMORANDUM ATTORNEY WORK PRODUCT and ATTORNEY/CLIENT COMMUNICATIONS TO: McVEIGH DEFENSE TEAM FROM: BOB WYATT SUBJECT: J.D. CASH INTERVIEW DATE: FEBRUARY 6, 1996 On or about January 27, 1996, Stephen Jones, Bob Wyatt, Mike Roberts and Richard Reyna interviewed J.D. Cash in the offices of Jones, Wyatt & Roberts. The subject of the discussion was primarily focused on Dennis Mahon (of Tulsa). There was a lot of jumping around during the conference so there may be some overlap in the material which has been covered. Stephen basically asked J.D. Cash to outline his meeting with Dennis Mahon and the following narrative was provided: CASH MEETING WITH MAHON J.D. Cash reported that he met with Dennis Mahon on the week before our interview (January 27). Cash said he was able to convince Mahon that he was a "good old boy" because he writes for Jubilee, a right-wing publication. Mahon apparently spoke openly to Cash and was willing to discuss virtually anything. Cash apparently also told Mahon that he wanted only to destroy Bill Clinton and Janet Reno. Cash said that making these statements really turns on these right-wing people. He said these things to try to find additional information concerning the government's prior knowledge of the bombing. Dennis Mahon expressed his regret that the situation in Oklahoma City involved the deaths of children. He said that the IRS would have been a better target. Mahon admitted that the job should have been pulled off at night to avoid the loss of life and still would have impacted to a great degree and would have focused on the excesses of the government. (I, Bob, am not sure that J.D. Cash mentioned that Mahon admitted his involvement in the Oklahoma City bombing at this time, but it was mentioned later during the interview.) J.D. Cash then discussed a Mark Thomas of Pennsylvania whom he was referred to by Dennis Mahon. Apparently Mark Thomas also had involvement in the OKC bombing and can identify Mike ______ (LNU) who looks like John Doe No. 2. Neither Dennis nor Mark would tell J.D. Cash Mike's last name, but they indicated that Mike's likeness may be on film which Dennis Mahon possesses. Dennis Mahon indicated that his brother, Daniel, is still employed at American Airlines. Apparently Dennis Mahon had been terminated from his employment at American Airlines because of some of his right-wing political activities and/or an arrest (I cannot recall). The subject of the American Airlines employment came up because Mahon agreed to take J.D. Cash (and perhaps Richard Reyna) to Pennsylvania for a few days. Mahon advised Cash that because his brother worked for American Airlines, they had plenty of vouchers for which they could travel fee all over the country. In regard to Andy Strassmeir and J.D. Cash's questioning, Mahon agreed to put Cash in touch with Mark Thomas in Pennsylvania. Mahon telephoned Mark in Cash's presence. Mark was extremely upset that Mahon had given up that information and that Mahon had allowed Cash to be on the telephone. Mahon reported to Mark Thomas that "we're (Mahon and Cash) going to fly up to Pennsylvania." Mark indicated that he was not sure he would talk. There was some brief conversation then that Cash understood that Mark and Dennis (or Mark or Dennis) were present for Snell's funeral at Elohim City. Mark reported that he was not at the funeral, but he was at Elohim City the week before. There was then some discussion concerning Andy being a snitch and asking whether Mark could help with that information. At this point, J.D. Cash was asked to put down the phone and Dennis Mahon and Mark Thomas had a significant argument on the telephone. J.D. Cash proceeded to tell us the hierarchy in the Aryan Nation which included Metzger as No. 1, Mark Thomas, No. 2 and Dennis Mahon, No. 3. ELOHIM CITY J.D. Cash began to describe the situation at Elohim City next. After his meeting with Dennis Mahon, J.D. Cash went to Elohim City. Robert Millar got to the point where he admitted that Tim McVeigh had been to Elohim City before. Cash repeatedly stated that he knew Tim had been to Elohim City. Cash tried to soften the "admission" by showing a photograph of Tim to Robert Millar asking whether this was the man who had come to Elohim City (as opposed to showing him the composite drawing). Millar reportedly stated that that person had come with Dennis Mahon to Elohim City and that they had come to see Andy Strassmeir. Robert Millar also made reports of a black (FBI or ATF) helicopter hoovering over Elohim City at dawn on Easter Sunday. They said that helicopter was hoovering 75 feet from Andy Strassmeir's house. They also reported a fixed-wing plane hoovering around the same time. After J.D. Cash had seen Robert Millar, Cash returned to his home in Battiest, Oklahoma. When he got home, he talked to Millar again. Millar indicated that he had had "over 1,000 calls" concerning Andy Strassmeir. Millar had even had a call from Kirk Lyons. Rick Shero, a Soldier of Fortune reporter and also one of Wilma's contacts, told J.D. Cash that Kirk Lyons was very angry over the reports coming from Millar which may connect Elohim City to the case or connect Andy Strassmeir to the case. Apparently Millar had given a story to the Little Rock Democrat. Cash said there was a lot of information that people were trying to help Mark Thomas at Elohim City a few days before the bombing. Mike _______ (LNU) was also a resident of Elohim City. Mark Thomas owns a semi-truck (tractor and trailer).1 MISCELLANEOUS MAHON While at Mahon's house, a young man (a skinhead) came by requesting money. Mahon reported that the guy had just gotten out of jail for murder. Mahon willing gave him some money, Cash believes less than $100. The young man was definitely a skinhead and had Neo-Nazi tatoos all over him. After getting the money, the young man and his associate took off. PHOTOGRAPH OF MIKE (LNU) The next discussion focused on a photograph of Mike _________ (LNU). There were also photographs of Metzger and George Eaton (of Elohim City). Additionally, they had photographs of the Lampleys (the Muskogee bombing) and Dennis Mahon. (Mahon reported that Lampley had reported to him how tough it is to buy 30-20 fertilizer. Lampley had been making C-4 in his kitchen because it was so difficult to obtain the other improvised explosives.) Dennis Mahon showed Cash a film on how to set up cells (either for Aryan Resistance or for domestic terrorism and militia training). ANDY THE GERMAN Dennis Mahon reported to Cash that Andy Strassmeir has done some "really bad stuff." Mahon reported, however, that the statute of limitations has run on most of those crimes. Because there is no statute of limitations on murder, Strassmeir could not be connected to the OKC bombing. During J.D. Cash's interview of Dennis Mahon, there was a telephone call from Mahon to Germany concerning placing a "hit" on Andy Strassmeir. Dennis Mahon ordered his brother to check on Strassmeir's connections because of Cash's allegations that Andy may have been an informant. There was some discussion of whether Cash had any evidence that Andy was an informant. Cash indicated that he reported to Mahon that Andy Strassmeir was an informant, but when asked by us whether Cash had any evidence of that fact, Cash said, "I know Andy is an informant." Mahon indicated that if Andy was an informant, he wanted to "take him out." When making the "hit" on Andy, Dennis Mahon spoke in English to his brother so that his brother could interpret for the Germans. In English, Dennis Mahon (with Daniel interpreting) advised the Germans to check out Andy. He indicated that Andy was presently in Berlin. Mahon wanted to establish that Andy was in military intelligence, i.e. a spy. He reported that Andy has "betrayed us here," and they wanted him to have a 30-minute trial, shoot him in both kneecaps, and kill him slowly. This conversation was held in English and German, and the telephone conversation was made in J.D. Cash's presence. Cash indicated this was a very long conversation because neither of the Mahon brothers speak very good German. JOHN DOE NO. 2 During Cash's meeting with Mahon, he noticed that Mahon was wearing a ball cap. The ball cap struck Cash as odd, but he could not recall where he had seen it before. Finally, he asked Mahon where the cap came from, and Mahon indicated that it was an NRA cap. This cap happened to have the "wings" which were described by Dana Bradley as being on the John Doe No. 2 ball cap. In the hat, Mahon looked like John Doe No. 2. Cash reports that he had read somewhere that Mahon was a master of disguises. That led to the next discussion of John Doe No. 2. Cash reported that there were a number of people in another room working on electronic machines. Cash saw these individuals and he feels certain that those individuals saw him as well. Cash, out of the presence of the other people, asked specifically if Mahon was John Doe No. 2. Mahon said, "It's me. I am the master of disguises and don't forget that!" In addition to his admitted involvement in the Oklahoma City bombing, Mahon reported that he was specifically involved in the Moody bombing (I belive in Georgia). RICHARD REYNA AND J.D. CASH WITH MAHON The next portion of the discussion addressed Mahon being upset on January 26. Apparently Channel 6 in Tulsa ran a story concerning Mahon and/or Strassmeir and a connection to Elohim City. Richard Reyna reported that Mahon was seen hauling things out of his Tulsa residence. Apparently Mahon had gotten two phone calls concerning the "hit" placed on Andy. Mahon did not want any connection to those things. MAHON AT IMPLOSION J.D. Cash reported that he has a contact with Leslie Jorgenson (free-lance writer in Colorado). She had recently telephoned him asking him to give up everything that he had concerning Dennis Mahon. She indicated that she had a photo of Dennis Mahon on May 20 at the site of the implosion. She also indicated that there were phone calls to the Radisson Inn on April 18 and May 20 which may relate to Dennis Mahon. J.D. Cash specifically asked Mahon whether he was present at the implosion. Mahon indicated that he was. He even tied himself to "Gary Locke." Mahon apparently told Gary Locke not to make the trip for the implosion. There was some discussion about Weisel who came to Dennis after the bombing and indicated that he had to be going to Germany.2 JO THOMAS J.D. Cash indicated that he and Jo Thomas have had lengthy conversations concerning the investigation of the OKC bombing. Somehow Mahon tied Jo Thomas and J.D. Cash together and was upset with Cash. Mahon reported to Cash that "that bitch" (Jo Thomas) is trying to tie Lewis Beam to the bombing. Beam is a member of "Order Three." Apparently the Order Three has something to do with how the "cells" come together. Mahon reported that he was leaving town because of Lewis Beam. JOHNNIE BANGERTER Cash indicated that Dennis Mahon knows Johnnie Bangerter. Stephen asked what evidence they have that Mahon and Bangerter knew each other? J.D. Cash indicated that he has possession of phone records from the Radisson Inn. He told Dennis Mahon that he had those phone records and Mahon "went pale." Apparently Cash believes it was Mahon at the Radisson Inn and that the calls between the Radisson Inn and St. George, Utah, were between Bangerter and Mahon. APRIL 19 EVENTS OF NOTE The next item for discussion was the photograph of the UPS truck in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Building on April 19. Apparently that was a hoax created by one of the Sheriff's Office photographers. I believe a Sergeant Sumpter may have been discussed. Cash said he provided the Sumpter video to both defense teams. There was also a discussion concerning a security camera at the YMCA. YMCA representatives have reported to Cash that the security camera was not connected. The YMCA did not have the funds to operate the camera, but wanted to place a fake security camera outside the parameter to deter any illegal activity, even though it was not in operation. The YMCA was also questioned whether McVeigh had ever parked his car there. A report was made that it was not McVeigh's car parked at the YMCA (as had previosuly been reported in the press). Apparently a man who lived at the YMCA had an old yellow taxi which he parked in their parking lot. Kay Herron has previously been interviewed by Channel 4. She reported that she was crossing the street 30 seconds after the blast. She saw the brown pickup truck with two males. The pickup truck almost ran her down. There was also a very brief discussion of the FBI affidavit concerning Abraham Ahmad. My notes are not clear on where we went with that. Perhaps Mike's notes are better. J.D. Cash then again addressed the pickup. He believes that it was loaded into a semi-truck and left. During this time, he also mentioned the name Gary Lewis as being the possible other guy with McVeigh (or who saw McVeigh). Cash believes that maybe the individuals drove back to Bricktown into a waiting semi-truck. EVIDENCE OF GOVERNMENT FOREKNOWLEDGE Glen Wilburn got to the building 12 minutes after the explosion. He saw 8-to-10 ATF agents walking along in a line by the crater. All of them were in the "raid jackets." Wilburn questions how these non-Oklahoma City agents arrived so fast, particularly since no ATF agents were in the building when it exploded. (The inference is that the government had foreknowledge). Cash received a call from a John Bircher. They were checking into Judge Cauthron's docket the day before the bomb. The female assistant of Judge Cauthron's has a boyfriend who is another "Cash" contact. Apparently, they were told that Judge Cauthron would not have her docket call on April 19. (This needs to be verified). That same female assistant was told by Judge Cauthron, allegedly, to take the day off on April 19. She believed, however, that Judge Cauthron did go in. Immediately after the bomb, however, she drove by Judge Cauthron's house and saw her car there. There was no answer at her house when she went to a telephone to call the Judge and when she returned a second time, Judge Cauthron's car was gone. In attempting to check out the Cauthron "notice," J.D. Cash went to the Court Clerk's Office. A U.S. Marshall there asked why he was checking on Judge Cauthron's docket sheet. Cash showed him the press card and indicated that he wanted to look into these matters. Cash was escorted by the U.S. Marshall to the Federal Building to the Federal Protective Service Office, Room 125. J.D. Cash said there were two men there, one in an ATF hat and another one he described as a "big guy." J.D. Cash introduced himself, but they already knew who he was. The big guy said to close the door and asked what he was doing looking at the docket sheets. J.D. Cash told him what he was looking for because he understood that Judge Cauthron was not present on April 19. In the big guy's handwriting, he left the name and address where he could meet with Cash. He told him to be there at 7:30 p.m. That guy's name is Tom Hunt. Tom Hunt is married to Danielle Hunt who worked at the Day Care Center. Danielle Hunt has reported in the past that someone fitting McVeigh's description had come to the Day Care Center requesting information about security and things of that nature. Tom Hunt told J.D. Cash that he was head of the Protective Services for Oklahoma and New Mexico. He advised that there was foreknowledge of the explosion. They (the Hunts) will try to help Cash establish that the government knew. Tom Hunt said he is sick of the lies. It particularly galled him as he was pulling out dead babies from the rubble. Tom Hunt advised that he was not in the Federal Building on April 19 because he was helping his mother-in-law move that day. Tom Hunt is an individual who has been feeding information to J.D. cash all along. J.D. Cash said that Hunt has information in his file cabinets, but Cash never gets anything good from him. He did get from Tom Hunt the "Sergeant Mack" letter from the FBI in Tyler, Texas, and the Anti-Defamation League memo, as well as the maps of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. Tom Hunt also advised that the video cameras in the Federal Building parking garage do not work. He advised that construction crews were always cutting the cables and finally the Protective Services decided not to replace the cameras. They would leave the cameras in place in the event it would scare off anyone, but there would be no tapes. Protective Services was also concerned with storage of all of those tapes. Hunt advised that there are generally two security men in front of the building, but in February 1995, changes in security were made (see Page 21). They changed the hours for the guard as well. Only one person would be a security guard, but that security guard ("Skip") was not present on April 19. It was Skip's job to check all of the tags on cars in the parking garage at the Murrah Building. Glen Wilburn has a running file on foreknowledge or prior notice of the government. Cash said that we would be better off talking with him about that particular issue. A federal employee named Norma (she works in the Courthouse) indicated that at 7:45 a.m. she drove by the Murrah Building. She happened to see the bomb squad there, and when she entered the Courthouse she asked what the bomb squad was for. No one knew and they all laughed it off. Norma will not talk to anyone, according to Cash. The Sumpter film shows the bomb squad jackets on the day of the bombing. Another witness, a black female, lost a baby in the bombing. She reports that she dropped off the child; when she dropped off her child, she also saw the bomb squad. Those men were wearing field jackets with black and white letters on the back which read "SO Bomb Squad" (referring to the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Office). Cash has talked with Captain Heddy with the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Office. He said that it is true that his employees were all rigged out on a training expedition, but they were not in the area of the Alfred P. Murrah Building. He also reported that their uniforms were not the same as those described by the woman. However, Cash says there is film of those same men from the bomb squad at the scene immediately thereafter on April 19. Captain Heddy said, however, that perhaps the OKCPD bomb squad wore that type of jacket. When questions were raised with the OKCPD, they were simply referred to the Oklahoma City City Attorney's Office. State Senator _______ (FNU) Dake of Edmond may also know of other witnesses. Dake's sister or sister-in-law worked with him the downtown area. At 7:30 a.m., she saw the security guard and saw the bomb squad at the Federal Building. The bomb squad even went inside the APM Building. The security guard at the coffee shop happened to see them go in, but then he went into the coffee shop and did not see anything thereafter. Lana Padilla and Joyce Nichols believe that there was prior knowledge by the government as well. Within 1-to-2 hours after the Perry incident, Lana Padilla received a phone call from the FBI. They tried to get her to contact Terry Nichols to tell him to surrender. At that same time, the raid at James Nichols' farm was being held. Kevin Nicholas' dad's place was raided too. It is hard to believe that the FBI could move that quickly. Leslie Jorgenson, who is a free-lance writer with Time and Newsweek, among others, reports that in the 48 hours before the bombing, the Alfred P. Murrah Building was staked out by the ATF. That may have even occurred as much as ten days before the bombing. ATF AGENTS IN OKC Larry Martz, ATF in Dallas, has been interviewed by Cash. Cash advised that he questioned Martz concerning how many agents were in Oklahoma City on April 19. Martz advised that there were eight. He said that those who were present were just field agents. Larry Martz was also questioned concerning the elevator "free fall" which he had described to reporters. He said that maybe he just imagined the free fall on the elevator (because that was disputed by Oscar Johnson and his brother who work for the elevator repair company). Martz advised that of those ATF agents stationed in Oklahoma City, two were in Ponca City that day and two were out on an arrest when the explosion occurred. All of the other agents were "out of town." Cash indicated that was a lie. A reporter in Colorado Springs (I believe Leslie Jorgenson) has worked with an ATF agent. That agent says that he got to the bomb site on April 20. He also mentioned that there was a Texas agent who was injured and hospitalized. Query: How could the Texas agent have been injured if he did not arrive until April 20? Cash also discussed the matter with Harry Eberhart. He was the acting manager of the ATF. He made mention that McCartney (sp) had just been named as head of the ATF at the time of the explosion. Jayna Davis of Channel 4 ran a story about Bruce Shaw (his name was not given in the story) who knows all of the ATF agents. Bruce Shaw's wife worked at the Credit Union in the Alfred P. Murrah Building. When he arrived at the scene, he did not recognize any of the ATF agents in the raid jackets although he knew all of the agents from his frequent visits to the APM Building. He said none of them were Oklahoma City agents. He told the agents that he needed to locate a local ATF agent, but he was advised that the locals were all in debriefing. The agent said, "There was a threat on this building and the agents weren't here when it exploded." Lester Martz flew to Oklahoma City to meet with the news director, Melissa, at Channel 4. Melissa asked where all of his agents were on the day of the bombing. Martz reported that 5-or-6 were at surveillance the night before and did not come in, two were in Ponca City and two were at the Courthouse. The surveillance may have been related to the Oklahoma City bombing. Martz would not say. He just had no comment. OTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES J.D. Cash mentioned that the U.S. Marshall's Service had evidence-gathering experts from Dallas here on April 19. That man's name is Witherspoon. He also reported that there were a number of agents here from Texas on April 18. Purportedly, those people were here training. Steve Mullins, the U.S. Attorney's spokesman, says there is nothing sinister about the Texas agents being in Oklahoma City for cross training. MYSTERIOUS HOOPS There have been reports of the ATF at approximately 3:30 a.m. using some type of radar hoops around the APM Building. There were also reports that those hoops were seen at approximately 4:30 a.m. on I-44 headed north. One lane of the traffic was open, but another lane was closed off. There were military police cars in the area where the hoops were being laid out or used as radar. There were 4-or-5 guys with the hoops and they were turning the hoops slowly. Cash reports that the military uses these hoops as does the DEA. These hoops are used in conjunction with the fixed-wing Cessna 1-90. Earphones are used and the hoop serves as an antenna or directional locator. Cash questions whether there may have been a transmitter on the alleged bomb vehicle and that they were trying to track these people. These sightings occurred between 3:30 a.m. and 6:30 a.m. GOVERNMENTAL MISCONDUCT Approximately three weeks ago, Lynn _____ (LNU), a friend of Glen Wilburn, came to Wilburn's house leaving a message with him. He had written on a sheet of paper that Glen was being followed and that his phones were tapped. They said that if the government lost the case, he would be charged with obstruction of justice (he, Wilburn). The note also mentioned that the government was aware of a long-legged female in a mini-skirt and was aware of Jones' meetings at Braum's.3 The government has Wilburn's house staked out, according to Lynn. Lynn supposedly has this information because his brother-in-law, or some relation, is an FBI agent. Stephen asked why they would tell Glen. Cash believes it is because he is in lots of trouble or possibly to simply show them that they have some evidence. Stephen advised that no single FBI agent would have known all of those things and that there is nothing they can do to Glen because he is not obstructing justice. STEPHEN JONES' QUESTIONS TO CASH Stephen asked Cash to identify all incriminating statements made by Mahon. Briefly summarized, Cash provided the following: The APM Building should have been blown up at night. The IRS would have been a better target. Mahon regrets the deaths of the children. Mahon was at the scene of the implosion. Mahon may be John Doe No. 2 and at least fits the description of John Doe No. 2. Mahon reportedly put a "hit" on Andy Strassmeir. Mahon reported that there was a connection between the Pennsylvania people and Elohim City and that people from Pennsylvania arrived at Elohim City just before the bombing. Mahon reported that Mike ________ (LNU) is an important figure with whom we need to talk. CASH'S THEORY OF THE CASE AND BRICKTOWN CONNECTION After Stephen received Reyna's report of the Mahon meetings, Stephen asked J.D. Cash some additional questions concerning his theory of the case. Cash provided the following: Cash reported that he believes that Tim and 3-or-4 others were involved directly in the construction and/or detonation of the bomb. He believes that the Ryder truck was involved, the Mercury was involved, and is 98% sure that the brown pickup was involved. Cash mentioned his investigation in the Bricktown area. He spoke with Kyle Hunt (a Tulsa mortgage maker) whom he believed to be a credible witness. At 8:35 a.m., Kyle Hunt saw the Mercury with McVeigh and two other white males. One had long hair and was sitting in the back seat. The other one was not described for us. Apparently Kyle Hunt saw these individuals in the Mercury at Main Street and Robinson just north and east of the IRS Building (by Taylor's Newsstand). Kyle Hunt reportedly was interviewed by the FBI on or about April 27, 1995 (or was interviewed by Cash on that date).4 Kyle Hunt indicated that he was heading east on Main Street just off of Robinson (going toward Broadway). He thought that McVeigh and the other individuals were lost and thought that they were moving because there was a Ryder truck following behind them. Kyle Hunt rolled his window down to see if he could assist them, but he said that the dirty look given him by McVeigh caused him to change his mind. That cold go-to-hell look was given to him. Kyle Hunt indicated that McVeigh was driving the Mercury and was almost to Bricktown when this exchange of looks occurred. Hunt indicated that he did not pay attention to the person in the Ryder truck. Cash also reported that he talked with other people in the Bricktown area. They indicated they had been interviewed by the FBI and ATF approximately two weeks after the bomb. One of those interviewed was David Snider. Snider was in the Bricktown area at 8:40 a.m. on April 19. He was expecting a shipment (I believe of computer equipment) at about 8:30 a.m. He said that ten minutes later when he saw the truck driving slowly through Bricktown, he tried to flag the people down indicating to them that it was his delivery. Snider reported that he saw the Ryder truck moving west (possibly on Oklahoma) and then turn south. He tried to wave them down and get their attention. He was pointing down to the curb where the address is painted trying to get them to come back. Snider reports that McVeigh was not driving the truck but was in the passenger seat. He said that the other guy looked somewhat like Richard Reyna (Cash said that Snider's description was of Richard Reyna). He said that the driver was either Indian or Hispanic. The truck, according to Snider, then stopped at Reno and made a right turn back toward downtown. Snider reports that he has been interviewed 3-or-4 times. When Snider was interviewed, he asked whether McVeigh's car needed some body work. He recalled that one day a yellow Mercury was coming by and he thought it was his mother-in-law (because she had a similar car). He saw the grey or brown body putty on the car. When Cash learned that information, he called Wilma to verify that McVeigh's car did have body putty. When asked whether Snider may have seen these people on the weekend before the bombing, Snider indicated that he could not have because he never works weekends. Cash also mentioned that he had talked with Teri Watkins. She reported to him that Sears had rented some Ryder trucks. Sears had some people downtown in Ryder trucks, but I believe it was mentioned that the driver of one truck had blond hair. J.D. Cash then gave some additional information concerning the brown pickup. He said that Mike Moroz reported that at the tire store they always greet the customers at their car. Moroz apparently reported that the brown pickup was stopped in that area. Cash believes that Tim was there waiting for a radio call to drive the truck in. Alternatively, it may have been a Tim McVeigh look alike. Cash also discussed the "post office man." He reported that Channel 4 and Jayna Davis have the "post office man" who admits having seen the Ryder truck and other vehicles after the tire store sighting. The post office man saw the truck parked at 5th & Walker immediately in front of the substation for the U.S. Post Office. The Ryder truck had two men standing behind it and one in the truck. The Mercury was parked alongside and was empty. They were parked at the meters directly across the street. After the post office man went into the Post Office and came back, no one was there. The Ryder truck was in front of the building. He saw one of those individuals whom he had seen behind the Ryder truck coming back toward the Journal Record Building. The post office man also saw a root-beer colored pickup. He said that this was a customized pickup and it caught his attention because he used to have one very similar. In fact, he thought it might have been his. There was a brief discussion thereafter concerning Lea Mohr. I believe Cash reported that he could not believe her because she was "doped up." I believe the reference may have been made to the fact that when she was interviewed, she was on medication. During the next discussion, Dana Bradley's sighting was the topic. The question was asked, where did Dana Bradley's "perpetrator" go? Apparently the person she saw headed east just before the explosion. There may have been one of the vehicles that pulled up to the parking spot to hold it until the truck arrived. They then moved the yellow Mercury and allowed the Ryder truck to pull in behind it. There was some mention that Tim may have tapped on the window of a car asking them to move so that they could pull in the Ryder truck. That woman may have been identified previously to Wilma Sparks.5 Cash also reported that the Alfred P. Murrah Building generally had 1-or-2 security guards out front. Prior to February 1995, there were always two security guards out there every morning. I believe the security guards had something to do with the Federal Credit Union, but I do not recall exactly what Cash said. It was reported to Cash that after February, the government had to reduce to only one security guard because of financial cutbacks. The security guard, however, was not present on the day of the explosion, which suggests that there was prior knowledge by the government.6 ADDITIONAL THEORIES Stephen asked Cash for his interpretation of exactly what happened in the bombing plot. Cash reported that he thought that Tim got involved with some very bad people. Cash said that he wants to know more about Gulf War Syndrome, why Tim was in the National Guard only four months, whether there have been any mind-control experiments, and whether Tim was manipulated. Cash avoided a direct answer. Cash continued stating that Tim excelled in the service, but he was not able to continue what he was doing; therefore, McVeigh transferred his allegiance to "another Army." As always, Tim was "balls to the wall." Cash then discussed his knowledge of the Aryan Nation's movement. He believes that in September and October of 1994, Tim may have met someone through them. He is basing this on alleged reports with a _________ (FNU) Snider, a former U.S. Attorney in Arkansas. Apparently, Ellison and Snell had a relationship in the prior bomb plot for the Oklahoma City Murrah Building. When asked by Stephen who constructed the bomb, Cash reported that he believes that Johnnie Bangeter was involved in this through his association with Jack Oliphant. He believes that Bangeter may have supplied one of the two Ryder trucks (assuming there are two) and some of the bomb components. As an aside, Cash said that Mike Tigar is convinced that the bomb was built between April 10 and April 12, not when alleged by the government. They believe that the bomb was built at the Lake by other individuals. Cash learned this information because he was at the meeting when James Nichols and Bob Popovich went to meet with Tigar. Cash's basis for the connection with Johnnie Bangeter is that one of Bangeter's guys got arrested in February or March 1995 for breaking into a military facility. Some rockets and other equipment were purportedly the target of the theft. Supposedly, Bangeter is negotiating a deal with the feds for his friend. Cash also believes that Dennis Mahon may have been involved. He mentioned that Dennis Mahon's military background in knowing how to build bombs. He mentioned something about the Delta Forces or the Delta Press (I have written down Delta Press, but I am sure I meant Forces). Cash believes that there are several different cells of this terrorism group which are located in the St. George/Kingman area, Elohim City, and in Decker, Michigan. J.D. Cash has worked with James Nichols on some of his stories. Cash has even sent to Tia Goodman a copy of the "Sumpter video" (Oklahoma County Sheriff's Department), which he claims he has also provided to us. Cash has also talked with Ron Woods regarding Terry's alibi for the Arkansas robbery. My notes do not reflect that any information concerning that was provided. John Cash then talked about some conversations they had had with the "friend." The friend's initials were D.M. (possibly Dennis Mahon). Supposedly, Mahon rode with Tim, but Tim was not supposed to be in the bombing. Cash reports that he has only in the last 30 days become aware of Dennis Mahon. In the aftermath of the bomb, Cash reports that a woman named Styles, who worked in the Federal Building for HUD, reported that Henry Cesneros (Secretary of HUD) came to Oklahoma City after the bomb and advised people in the agency not to discuss prior bomb threats. This matter may also be able to be confirmed through Terry Shaw (Bruce Shaw's wife).7 Cash also mentioned that on April 18, there were a number of stun granades (used for raids) at the APM Building. On April 20, Lester Martz had the ATF clear out all of its arsenals. Cash also mentioned Sergeant Don Browning, a dog handler, who knows a lot about the "wrongs" going on with the ATF and FBI concerning this investigation. He believes that this information is being given by the ATF and FBI. Don Browning says that he is sticking to his story, not that of the ATF and FBI. Cash said that he could probably provide us an address or phone number for Don Browning. To Cash's knowledge, there are no contacts between Terry Nichols and the feds. He is not aware of any possible plea agreements between the two. Cash also says that his connection at the prison has told him that one of Jones' previous associates tried to see Tim after leaving Jones' employment. (I have since talked to Julia about this, and she denies that she went to Oklahoma City on the Friday before she went to Denver. She claims that after her employment here terminated, she has not been to see Tim. She would like for us to notify her if such an incident occurs again. She does not want to be associated with any wrong-doings.) J.D. CASH BACKGROUND J.D. Cash reports that he was born in Oklahoma City. He is 43 years old. He attended high school in Oklahoma City. His parents divorced when he was approximately 9 years old, and between the ages of 14 and 15, he moved to Tulsa. His mother was Bob Kerr's secretary. He worked for a long time at a mortgage company in Tulsa. Cash learned the mortgage business while visiting his mother and working in the mortgage company after school and in high school. Cash attended Tulsa Junior College for two years on a full-time basis. At 21 years of age, he was married. He worked for Modern American Mortgage for 5 years. In 1976 or 1977, he began making money by building homes on the side. He did that for about 4-or-5 years. He then determined that he needed a 4-year degree and returned to Tulsa University full time in 1979 to obtain a degree. He studied in the history department and earned a scholarship there. He later went to law school at TU after leaving a joint history and law degree program. Because he laid out of school for a couple of years developing a title search business, he did not graduate from night school until 1984. He then attended law school sporadically until 1988 when he graduated. Cash reports that he never took the bar exam. During the interim period, he continued his title search business for banks. His business generated between $20,000 and $30,000 per month. In 1990, he shut down the mortgage business and moved to southeast Oklahoma where he could write and fish. In southeastern Oklahoma, he has been working on the great American novel. He has not quite finished it, and he had had to go back to writing to generate a little income. He has been working for the McCurtain County Gazette in Idabel and submitting articles to Jubilee and other publications. Cash reported that his interest in the bombing came because of the death of his friend Charles Wilson who worked for HUD. He indicated that he is not interested in the investigative journalism as much as he is in writing a detailed account of the bombing after the fact. He reports that he was recently awarded a significant award for journalism from the Society of Professional Journalists for his articles that appeared in the McCurtain County Gazette. Stephen asked John Cash what his relationship was with Lawrence Myers. Apparently there is not much of a relationship between Myers and Cash. Lawrence Myers knows of the phone calls to Germany concerning the hit placed on Andy Strassmeir only because of Glen Wilburn. Apparently Glen Wilburn has been funneling information back to Myers. Both Stephen and Cash agreed that Myers is brilliant, but neither have verified his background. RICHARD REYNA'S REPORT MAHON SECOND VISIT During our meeting, Stephen also asked Richard Reyna for his report. Reyna skipped his first visit with Dennis Mahon which he had arranged through Kirk Lyons. Stephen indicated that Reyna had already given us an oral report concerning the meeting where Mahon's attorneys were present. Stephen wanted a discussion concerning the meeting without the attorneys' presence. Reyna reported that he and J.D. Cash drove to Tulsa together. They drove by Mahon's home and noted that his truck was not there.8 Fortunately, there was a news article on television in Tulsa concerning the Strassmeir connection on the day that Reyna went back to see Dennis Mahon. Reyna used the television news article which he had seen at noon as his opening to see Mahon again. Apparently Reyna went by the television station or Broadcast News to obtain a copy of the video footage to show to Dennis Mahon. Richard Reyna indicated that he did not question Mahon concerning the video coverage. He just wanted to show it to Mahon to see his reaction and use it as an opening to go back and see Mahon a second or third time. Mahon was visably angry, in fact furious. He was very distressed and was openingly talking about the fact that Andy "couldn't be" an agent. Reyna reported that he was saying Andy "couldn't be" using that in a question form, not a declaration. Mahon told Reyna that Andy had reported to Mahon that he was a former member of the GSG-9. He was in the anti-terrorist unit in Germany. Mahon said, "That fucking guy (apparently referring to Millar) is wrong about Andy." Reyna referenced a Newsweek magazine article (I am not sure what he is talking about) and indicated that he was not saying who the informant was. He only mentioned that one of two people could have provided some of the information: Ellison or Strassmeir. Reyna said that one of those people had testified for the government and had a 20-year sentence reduced to one year and protection through the witness protection program. The other was a GSG-9 anti-terrorist member. Reyna asked Mahon, "who would you think was the informant?" Reyna said that Mahon continued ranting and raving. Mahon repeatedly stated that Andy couldn't be an informant. MIKE (LNU) There was then a discussion about Mike _______ (LNU). Reyna indicated that he knew who Mike was and had his last name. Reyna reported to Mahon that he knew Mike had a crush on ________ (FNU) Jones' youngest daughter.9 Reyna also reported that he has phone records with calls to Mike _______ (LNU). Those phone calls were placed from Elohim City and directed to Pennsylvania. Reyna mentioned that he had not yet talked to Mike (but indicated that he would like to). Richard Reyna asked for an introduction to Mike. Mahon said he could not personally do the introduction, but he was willing to get a tape from Mike which would give Reyna permission to talk with him. In this tape recording provided to Reyna for Mike _______ (LNU), the tape indicated that Mahon wanted to "clear Andy's name." I believe the tape was played at this time for our listening. Stephen made a copy of the tape. MAHON'S MESSAGE TO TIM Mahon also made a tape for Tim McVeigh. The tape was recorded on January 21. Basically, the tape indicated that Mahon wanted Tim to continue hanging tough and wanted to thank him for it. He indicated that there are some people who believe that Tim was innocent and that the government was the most evil thing in the world. He mentioned the massacre at Waco and the HRT (I believe that was a unit at Waco). Mahon referenced several times that his prayers and concerns were with Tim. He said that justice will come, and Tim will be comforted. He mentioned an "entrapment artist" (which may have been a veiled reference to the government). Mahon reported that he was sorry for the loss of life in Oklahoma City, but he felt that Tim was innocent by entrapment. He reminded Tim to "remember freedom." Remember those SS men and those grey soldiers who fought for independence. (That was the end of the tape.) There was then a brief discussion that Andy had gotten a photo of Tim McVeigh from Dennis Mahon. J.D. Cash then began providing additional information stating that Mahon is concerned that he will be tied into the bombing. RLW:kw 4\wp51\mcveigh\memos\cash.207