MEMORANDUM


SUBJECT:	RICHARD REYNA INTERVIEW OF MR. BANGERTER AND WATCHING OF ABC INTERVIEW

DATE:	FEBRUARY 6-10, 1996


Mr. Reyna was present during an ABC interview of Mr. Bangerter, and the following questions were asked and answered during the interview.  Mr. Bangerter stated that he had been welding and logging during the week of April 19, 1995.  
Mr. Bangerter was asked if had ever made a threat on a federal building, and he replied that he did at one time, but that the threat had been made against an IRS building.  
Mr. Bangerter was asked if he ever was questioned by the FBI regarding the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building, and Mr. Bangerter replied "If the FBI comes here to ask about the Oklahoma City bombing, I will use deadly force against them.  I am giving them fair warning.  The FBI is the enemy."  Mr. Bangerter began to talk about how the FBI, through an informant, tried to sell him 100 hand grenades, just the other day.  
Mr. Bangerter was asked if he knew Jack Oliphant, and he replied that he had met Mr. Oliphant through a mutual friend in Idaho.  Mr. Bangerter stated that he had visited Mr. Oliphant at his ranch, and that he occasionally helped Jack Oliphant on his ranch.  Mr. Bangerter stated that he and Mr. Oliphant basically discussed religious views.
Mr. Bangerter was asked if Jack Oliphant ever discussed Timothy McVeigh, and Mr. Bangerter replied that Jack never discussed Mr. McVeigh and Mr. Bangerter also denied knowing Mr. McVeigh.  Mr. Bangerter was asked about a previous statement that he made regarding Tim McVeigh having stayed at the Oliphant ranch for approximately three months.  Mr. Bangerter stated that he had merely repeated what a reporter told him, and that he had no personal knowledge that Mr. McVeigh ever stayed at the Oliphant ranch or for that matter that Mr. Oliphant even knew Mr. McVeigh.
Mr. Bangerter was asked whether he attended the Crossroad West Gun Show in February of 1995.  The gun show was held on a Saturday and Sunday.  Mr. Bangerter stated that he did attend the gun show which lasted two full days.  Mr. Bangerter stated that there were approximately 100 tables, and that it had not been a very large gun show.
Mr. Bangerter was asked whether he met or spoke with either Tim McVeigh or Terry Nichols, and he replied that he did not, that he didn't even see either of the two at the gun show.  Mr. Bangerter stated that he attended the gun show with some friends and that all were in a group.  Mr. Bangerter stated that he spoke with different gun dealers, but could not recall the names of some of the gun dealers.
The reporter stated that Mr. McVeigh supposedly stayed at the Dixie Palm Motel in St. George, and then asked Mr. Bangerter if he stopped by the Dixie Palm Motel during the gun show.  Mr. Bangerter stated that he never went around the Dixie Palm Motel.  Mr. Bangerter commented that lots of people have suddenly remembered Mr. McVeigh after his being featured on television and in the newspapers following the bombing of the federal building.  Mr. Bangerter mentioned the name Richard Kaufman,1 but Reyna was unable to hear what he had to say about Mr. Kaufman other than it pertained to Arizona.  
The reporter told Mr. Bangerter that there are records to indicate that a 38 minute telephone call was made from his home telephone to the home of Kevin Nicholas in Michigan.  The reporter also mentioned that a total of 4 telephone calls were made from his residence to the Raddison in Oklahoma City just two days before the bombing.  Mr. Bangerter replied that he had no idea as to who could have made the telephone calls.  
The reporter again mentioned that he had been told that Mr. McVeigh spent 30 minutes talking with a person named "John" at a gun show.  Mr. Bangerter replied that it was not him and again repeated that he has never met Mr. McVeigh.
Mr. Bangerter was asked if he had an idea as to who could have made the telephone call to Kevin Nicholas on the night of April 16, 1995.  Mr. Bangerter replied that it was possible that the call could have made by a person with an accent and if so, that his wife might know who the person could be.  
Mr. Bangerter was asked about the survival training courses that he organized in Utah, and Mr. Bangerter replied that he has organized such courses and has asked people to teach survival training, but he would not say the names of the instructors.  Mr. Bangerter stated that Aryan Nations people with military backgrounds have been instructors during these training courses.  
Mr. Bangerter was told by the reporters that they had received information that Tim McVeigh had told some people that he was not able to make it for the Christmas holidays because he was going to teach survival training in southern Utah.  Mr. Bangerter replied that to his knowledge, Mr. McVeigh never taught survival training during this particular course or any other course.  
Mr. Bangerter stated that he was very active from December, 1994, through January, 1995 with survival training, and that he never spoke with Timothy McVeigh or anyone who fit Mr. McVeigh's description.  Mr. Bangerter stated that it was very possible that Mr. McVeigh saw some of the publications pertaining to survival training, and may have even tried to volunteer his services as a possible instructor, but to his knowledge and recollection, Mr. McVeigh never participated as an instructor.  
Mr. Bangerter was asked about a business called China Mist Tea Company, and he replied that this was one of the many companies that his father did business with.  Mr. Bangerter quickly added that the telephone number that listed calls to the Raddison Inn in Oklahoma City and to the residence of Kevin Nicholas was actually listed in the name of his father, John Bangerter, and that at the time, he had his own working telephone number.
Mr. Bangerter was again asked if he had any ideas as to who could have called the Raddison Inn four times, with one call in particular the day before the bombing and, who could have called Kevin Nicholas.  Mr. Bangerter replied that he had no idea who could have made the calls and then commented that he didn't know of anyone, known to him, that would have been in Oklahoma City during the month of April, 1995.  Mr. Bangerter was asked if Jack Oliphant had any connection to the Oklahoma City bombing, and he replied that he was certain that Mr. Oliphant was not involved.
Mr. Bangerter stated that perhaps Kevin Nicholas should be questioned about the telephone call.  If Nicholas says that he received the call, then he has to search his memory.  Mr. Bangerter stated that he believes that the FBI falsely added the 30 minute telephone call to the records just like they previously entered a false warrant of arrest for his sister who was arrested, and then released without charges.  
Mr. Bangerter was again asked if it was possible that he could have seen Mr. McVeigh at the gun show, and Mr. Bangerter replied that he might have seen Timothy McVeigh, and that it was possible that he may have met Tim McVeigh, but that he really didn't remember.  Mr. Bangerter commented that Mr. McVeigh certainly had the type of face that he could easily remember.  Mr. Bangerter was asked if he has ever heard the name Tim Tuttle, and he replied that the name rang a bell, but that was all.  Mr. Bangerter was told that by not talking to the FBI, he would only bring more suspicion upon himself, and Mr. Bangerter replied that he would never talk with the FBI.  
Mr. Bangerter was asked if he knew the names of Tony Tresa, Paul Fatta, Roger Moore, Bob Miller, and Karen Anderson.  Mr. Bangerter replied that he has heard the name Tony Tresa mentioned several times, but he did not know the other names.  Mr. Bangerter was asked if he had any knowledge of the Oklahoma City bombing, and he replied that he did not.  The interview with ABC concluded, and then Richard Reyna met with Mr. Bangerter privately to ask some additional questions.  
In the private interview, Richard Reyna asked Mr. Bangerter if he had any ideas about who could have made the telephone call to the home of Kevin Nicholas on the night of April 16, 1995.  Mr. Bangerter replied that the only person in his mind would have to be Jim Dalton, a person who had identified himself as a former intelligence officer, and former British law enforcement officer.  Mr. Bangerter stated that Mr. Dalton speaks with an Australian accent.  Mr. Bangerter stated that Mr. Dalton had access to his father's house because he had been using a computer inside the house and that Mr. Dalton also had access to the telephone.  Mr. Bangerter stated that he was certain that on the night of April 16, 17, and 18, 1995, Dalton was at his father's house by himself.  
Mr. Bangerter stated that Mr. Dalton has moved within the past few weeks, and is now living in Texas.  Mr. Dalton was recently divorced, and his ex-wife, Gloria Dalton, works and lives in the city of St. George.  Gloria Dalton is employed by Job Services.  
Mr. Bangerter stated that Mr. Dalton's mother is Katherine Dalton, the author of the book "With-out Hardware."  Mr. Bangerter also stated that Mr. Dalton has told him that his grandfather is Robert Graves, another well known writer.
On February 8, 1996, Mr. Reyna resumed questioning Mr. Bangerter.  The conversation pertained to the telephone calls in question.  Mr. Bangerter insisted that he could not have made the calls and in particular, the call to Kevin Nicholas.  Mrs. Bangerter stated that if the calls to the Raddisson Inn were made on February 17-18, 1995, that she and Mr. Bangerter were at home celebrating birthday parties for one of their children (Feb. 17, 1995), and for one of their nephews (Feb. 18, 1995) and that all family members met early in the day at their home in La Verkin and everyone stayed until late at night.  Mrs. Bangerter stated that the only person at John Bangerter's house in St. George would have been Jim Dalton because Mr. Dalton had been working on the computer in the house.
On February 9, 1996, Mr. Reyna again returned to the Bangerter residence.  At this meeting, Mr. Bangerter stated that he had met Mr. McVeigh at the Crossroads of the West gun show in February, 1995.
He said that Richard Kaufman had contacted him several times and spoke about meeting Tim Tuttle.
Mr. Bangerter stated that his La Verkin residence had telephone service in April, 1995, but that the telephone service had a "block" to prevent long distance calls.
Mr. Bangerter stated that he is positive that he did not make the calls to the Raddisson Inn on February 17-18, 1995, and that in all probability, the calls were made by his father who is involved in several business ventures, and in particular, several tea companies.
Mr. Bangerter stated that on April 16, 1995, (Easter Sunday), he was certain that he did not make the call because everyone was at his house on that particular night and never went to his father's house.
Mr. Bangerter stated that it is very difficult to believe what Mr. Dalton says and that they even suspect him to be a government informant.  Mr. Bangerter was upset that Dalton would suggest that either Brian Sharp or Joe Keezer could have made the telephone call from his father's house.  Mr. Bangerter stated that Sharp has been to his father's house once or twice, but that Keezer has never been inside the house.
Mr. Bangerter said he would try to locate his father's telephone records for April, 1995, and further he said that he would try to locate some of his videos of Aryan Nation meetings that he was sure included Andreas Strassmeir.  Mr. Bangerter stated that he had met Strassmeir but could not recall when their first meeting occurred.
On February 10, 1996, Mr. Reyna returned to the Bangerter residence.  Mrs. Bangerter stated that she was certain that on the dates February 17-18, 1995, her husband was home celebrating birthday parties.  She said that they honestly did not know anyone named Kevin Nicholas and she stated that the only thing that they could imagine was that Jim Dalton could have made the call.
Mr. Bangerter then joined the conversation and stated that he had no knowledge about the calls to the Raddisson Inn or to Kevin Nicholas.
Mr. Bangerter did not know why Richard Kaufman was so insistent on introducing him to Mr. McVeigh.  He said it did not make sense because Kaufman was known to be a straight shooter and would not be an informant or try to set him up.
Mr. Bangerter stated that his mother, Mary LaFountain, did receive several telephone calls from someone who was looking for him during the February '95 gun show in St. George.
Mr. Reyna then accompanied Mr. Bangerter to Mrs. LaFountain's residence.
Mrs. LaFountain stated that she received phone calls during the February '95 gun show in St. George.  The calls were made to Johnny Bangerter's residence in La Verkin.  She said that she was living there at the time, but that the telephone number to the house was listed under the name of Brenda Hart.
She said that the caller identified himself as Tim, said he had heard a lot about Johnny, said he was hoping that they could something together and that he and Johnny had a mutual friend in Arizona.
Mrs. LaFountain told the caller that Johnny was on his way to the gun show and could be met there.  The caller gave her his hotel telephone number.  Mrs. LaFountain recalled telling Mr. Bangerter "This is a good soldier."
During the conversation, Mr. Bangerter stated that he recalled the conversation and remembered the name Tim Tuttle mentioned.
Mrs. LaFountain could not recall the last name of the caller or of the hotel.  She stated that she believed that "Tim" called again but she could not remember the time of day or what was said.  She said that "Tim" called one last time and told her that he had to check out of the hotel, and he was calling one lat time to try to contact her son.  She apologized to him, and said that her son probably forgot to contact him.
RJW:sh
3\wp51\mcveigh\memos\bangerter.m12